Lucky wrote:

Hi Peter

Our society has become so dumbed down by terrible public schools and mass
migration of 5th grade educated aliens. So, they don't have the capacity nor
the comprehension to be even remotely interested in SW.

It is so easy to place the blame on the schools. Much of the blame also
goes to the parents who don't/won't instill the need for education.
People need to take responsibility and not look for the easy scapegoat.
Parents have a responsibility to their children. The school system is
not a means to escape that responsibility.


I know you don't have to be the most intelligent to operate a receiver, but
to know about it and be interested in it you must have some decent education
and culture.

Does that mean some elite requirements to be a shortwave listener. I
would t hink that all that is needed is a radio, the knowlege of what
might be out ther (to listen to) and the desire to listen.

SW radio can be a vehicle to provide some education, however education
need not be a requirement.


We live in a hip hop, lip syncing, shallow society now. Culture is all but
gone.

Lucky



Enjoy,

craigm

Peter Maus wrote:


The exit of manufacturers from SW has to do with shrinking customer
base for SW hardware. SW is declining in use, people are exiting the
hobby for, among other things, satellite radio and internet listening,
so there are fewer sets being purchased.

SW may not be declining in use (or it may be). Degen and Tecsun seem to
have found enough of a market for them to produce several new portable
radios. Granted, these are near the low end of the market.

The problem comes with the supply and demand for higher end receivers.
Much of the worldwide listening audience may not be able to afford
several hundred dollars for a tabletop receiver. The big market for
these receivers may be the US and Europe.

There may not be a decline in use of receivers. A good SW receiver will
last several years. There have been many good receivers at various price
and performance levels produced of many years. Most people may have
found a receiver that meets their needs. If so, then there may be little
demand for a new receiver. If one has a receiver that meets their needs,
there is little incentive to spend big bucks to buy one that can only
offer limited improvement over what they already have. The decline that
is visible is in the sales of receivers.

For the manufacturers, they need to see that there is a market where
people will buy a new product. If they don't see a market, it is very
hard for them to invest the money to develop and market a new product.
The cost to bring a product to market is fairly high and the
manufacturer must be able to pay that cost from the sales of the product.

I hope some manufacturer will see that there might be demand for a new
higher end receiver. That receiver would need something that sets it
apart from others on the market and what folks already own. A 'me-too'
receiver will not be able to generate much in the way of sales.


craigm

craigm wrote:

Lucky wrote:

Hi Peter

Our society has become so dumbed down by terrible public schools and mass
migration of 5th grade educated aliens. So, they don't have the capacity nor
the comprehension to be even remotely interested in SW.

It is so easy to place the blame on the schools. Much of the blame also
goes to the parents who don't/won't instill the need for education.
People need to take responsibility and not look for the easy scapegoat.
Parents have a responsibility to their children. The school system is
not a means to escape that responsibility.

Agreed, but the parents are part of the problem too. All they care about
is getting the easy A, getting the kid into Harvard so they can put
pressure on the poor professors to hand out A's because that's the only
acceptable return on their investment, and then making sure the kid gets
an MBA so that he/she can go straight to the top. It's all part of the
culture of instant gratification. Getting an actual education has been
kicked to the side in favor of getting an easy degree in order to get a
high paying job. It's the high paying job that's important, not the
actual education. 35 years ago, college students said in surveys that
the most important reason for a college education was to become a better
person, to broaden one's horizons, and all that "hippie stuff". Today
all the kids care about is getting in and out as fast as possible and
getting to the corner office as fast as possible, along with the Lexus,
the hot secretary, and the mansion. The whole culture has become
coarsened, and the only thing that's important is making a lot of money,
not becoming a better person.


I know you don't have to be the most intelligent to operate a receiver, but
to know about it and be interested in it you must have some decent education
and culture.

Does that mean some elite requirements to be a shortwave listener. I
would t hink that all that is needed is a radio, the knowlege of what
might be out ther (to listen to) and the desire to listen.

SW radio can be a vehicle to provide some education, however education
need not be a requirement.

SW radio tends to have more intellectual programming than say network
TV. In America, the breakout TV hit of the summer is an abomination
called "Dancing with the Stars", where washed up celebrities pair off
with professional dancers in order to win a multiweek dancing
competition. The costumes are titillating and the set looks like it came
out of a disco hall. A culture that makes "Dancing with the Stars" a hit
is not one that is interested in crackly, fading radio broadcasts on
Ethiopian culture and news broadcasts that lack car chases and murders
du jour. All of American culture caters to the lowest common
denominator, and SW radio tends to set its sights higher. That's why
hardly anybody in America listens to SW. People have been dumbed down by
many different factors over the past 30 years, and they're simply not
interested in SW's highbrow fare. It's a tragedy, and it may yet be the
end of us.


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Actually, more than I used to, and by quite a margin.

Steve

craigm ) writes:
Peter Maus wrote:


The exit of manufacturers from SW has to do with shrinking customer
base for SW hardware. SW is declining in use, people are exiting the
hobby for, among other things, satellite radio and internet listening,
so there are fewer sets being purchased.

SW may not be declining in use (or it may be). Degen and Tecsun seem to
have found enough of a market for them to produce several new portable
radios. Granted, these are near the low end of the market.

The problem comes with the supply and demand for higher end receivers.
Much of the worldwide listening audience may not be able to afford
several hundred dollars for a tabletop receiver. The big market for
these receivers may be the US and Europe.

There's always been this split. Hobby types who are more interested
in the where rather than the content, and who not only may be interested
in great equipment, but that equipment can be an end as much as a means.

Then you have the people who are only interested in the content. They
emigrated from another country and want to hear news from home, or have an
interest in world affairs. The radio is only a means to that end.

I'm not sure how the latter group was served decades ago, though there
were all those multiband portables you could buy at the neighborhood store.
The Big Name shortwave manufacturers were sold in relatively isolated spots,
ie ham stores, and while you could get cheap ones the good ones cost
a pretty penny.

Nowadays, as you point out, there are quite a few shortwave receivers
available, and available all over the place. I suspect they tend to
be better than the cheap receivers of years gone by. At the very least,
they are easier to use. None of that calibration where there is a mark
every 500KHz (well, it's sort of closer to the 9 than the 9.5); you get
digital readout so you know you are tuned the the right frequency. One might
argue that digital tuning, plus availability, has meant more people tune
into shortwave, or at lest buy such receivers in order to tune in (though
perhaps they don't stick with it after the initial tuning).

Of course it's a loss if the relative high end receivers disappear. But
they cater to a relatively small market, ie those who can afford such
receivers and those who actually want them. Maybe there is a decline
in those numbers, so there is no longer enough of a market. But it
could also mean that the receivers have priced themselves out of the market,
that they can't be manufactured for the limited numbers at a price that
will bring in enough buyers. For that matter, the available of decent
receivers from Sony and Grundig may impact on those expensive receivers.
If once upon a time one could buy an S-38 or an HRO, the performance level
is pretty black and white. But if you can get a fairly decent receiver
for $300, like a Yaught Boy 400 or the Sony 7600, it may be good enough
for far more people than that S-38. And that may cut into the pool
of buyers for the R-75 or the Drake.

Michael

Michael Black wrote:


craigm ) writes:
Peter Maus wrote:


The exit of manufacturers from SW has to do with shrinking customer
base for SW hardware. SW is declining in use, people are exiting the
hobby for, among other things, satellite radio and internet listening,
so there are fewer sets being purchased.

SW may not be declining in use (or it may be). Degen and Tecsun seem to
have found enough of a market for them to produce several new portable
radios. Granted, these are near the low end of the market.

The problem comes with the supply and demand for higher end receivers.
Much of the worldwide listening audience may not be able to afford
several hundred dollars for a tabletop receiver. The big market for
these receivers may be the US and Europe.

There's always been this split. Hobby types who are more interested
in the where rather than the content, and who not only may be interested
in great equipment, but that equipment can be an end as much as a means.

Then you have the people who are only interested in the content. They
emigrated from another country and want to hear news from home, or have an
interest in world affairs. The radio is only a means to that end.

The former group seems to be shrinking. Passport has said that most SW
listeners listen to just a handful of favorite stations.

I'm not sure how the latter group was served decades ago, though there
were all those multiband portables you could buy at the neighborhood store.
The Big Name shortwave manufacturers were sold in relatively isolated spots,
ie ham stores, and while you could get cheap ones the good ones cost
a pretty penny.

Well, back in the 1930s, a six tube table radio (portables were rare
because of the tremendous power demand of the tubes, requiring 90 volt
batteries in some cases) that cost a modest amount usually had a SW
band, usually 3-12 Mc (cycles back then) or something similar. The
cheapest radios only had mediumwave AM, usually called BC, but the next
step up in price range usually had a SW band. Console radios, which were
big, 5 foot high radios with over 10 tubes that sat on the floor and
which were practically furniture, usually had several SW bands, covering
from 1700-1800 or so kc to 25-30 or so Mc. Shortwave listening was quite
popular during World War 2, and sophisticated propaganda stations were
operated by both sides. Even in Nazi Germany console radios usually had
a couple SW bands from what I understand. The kicker is, few Germans
could afford them.

When transistors came on the scene the familiar multiband portables were
built, including the Transoceanic, the World Monitor, and the Japanese
brands. They were heavy, had poor dial calibration, and had other
technical issues, but it didn't take much to tune in the blowtorch
stations operated by the Communists, and that was the main attraction.
Nobody ever admitted to listening to Radio Moscow of course, but it did
have listeners in the West, usually interested in the amusement factor
and the chance to hear the Cold War being fought live over the air.
During this period the big name SW radios were mostly for hams.


Nowadays, as you point out, there are quite a few shortwave receivers
available, and available all over the place. I suspect they tend to
be better than the cheap receivers of years gone by. At the very least,
they are easier to use. None of that calibration where there is a mark
every 500KHz (well, it's sort of closer to the 9 than the 9.5); you get
digital readout so you know you are tuned the the right frequency. One might
argue that digital tuning, plus availability, has meant more people tune
into shortwave, or at lest buy such receivers in order to tune in (though
perhaps they don't stick with it after the initial tuning).

Compared with the big multiband portables of the 60s, today's radios are
well built, incredibly accurate, and have more features. They're also
smaller and lighter-not to mention cheaper. A TO cost several hundred
dollars, a pretty penny back then. Today's Degens and Tecsuns can be had
for $50 over Ebay, and a Degen 1102 is better in almost every way than
the TO.

Of course it's a loss if the relative high end receivers disappear. But
they cater to a relatively small market, ie those who can afford such
receivers and those who actually want them. Maybe there is a decline
in those numbers, so there is no longer enough of a market. But it
could also mean that the receivers have priced themselves out of the market,
that they can't be manufactured for the limited numbers at a price that
will bring in enough buyers. For that matter, the available of decent
receivers from Sony and Grundig may impact on those expensive receivers.
If once upon a time one could buy an S-38 or an HRO, the performance level
is pretty black and white. But if you can get a fairly decent receiver
for $300, like a Yaught Boy 400 or the Sony 7600, it may be good enough
for far more people than that S-38. And that may cut into the pool
of buyers for the R-75 or the Drake.

I really think that the market for tabletops is saturated. There's
simply no more demand for them. In a world where a $50 radio will easily
pull in the 4 or 5 stations you listen to regularly, there's little need
for a $1800 radio whose main attraction is its ability to ferret out
weak signals, a vocation 95% of SW listeners simply aren't interested
in. The few who are interested in DXing have a deep pool of used
tabletops to choose from. The rest have cheap, well built Chinese
portables to buy, and for them, that's all they really need. Tastes
change, technology marches on, and the old becomes obsolete. Tabletops
are, for the most part, obsolete.


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

running dogg wrote:
Tabletops
are, for the most part, obsolete.



I would disagree with that. There are many features on tabletop radios
that will probably never be found in portables.

Many of the folks in this group use tabletop radios.

There is nothing that acts as a replacement for the tabletop radio.
(Except, maybe the PC based radio.)

craigm

On 16 Jul 2005 14:05:20 -0700, wrote:

Actually, more than I used to, and by quite a margin.

Steve

15 years ago it was EAMs constantly, several REACH missions
simultaneously, AF1 and 2, Generals ordering limos and T-times,
personal HF phone patches, etc.

A lot of that stuff is digital via Iridium or other satellites nows a
daze.

David wrote:

On 16 Jul 2005 14:05:20 -0700, wrote:

Actually, more than I used to, and by quite a margin.

Steve

15 years ago it was EAMs constantly, several REACH missions
simultaneously, AF1 and 2, Generals ordering limos and T-times,
personal HF phone patches, etc.

A lot of that stuff is digital via Iridium or other satellites nows a
daze.

Seems as though you're not listening enough!

dxAce
Michigan
USA

"craigm" wrote in message It is so easy to place the
blame on the schools. Much of the blame also
goes to the parents who don't/won't instill the need for education. People
need to take responsibility and not look for the easy scapegoat. Parents
have a responsibility to their children. The school system is not a means
to escape that responsibility.


I agree craig. In my home it's mandatory to have good grades and do well in
school. Yes it's hard finding the energy to help three kids with their
homework and attend their school functions after working all day but it's my
responsibility to make sure they get a good education. My parents didn't get
involved in my schooling and when I got in high school my grades suffered
because I screwed off and it cost me a architectural career. It took me
years to catch up in order to make a good living but I'll still never be an
architect

B.H.