Dave Stadt wrote:
"Bill Turner" wrote in message
...
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

Absolutely, I get it.

You and the two or three posters who agree with you are self-centered
pigs who care nothing about preserving history. Your temporary
adrenaline rush is much more important, and the risk of splattering a
priceless aircraft means nothing beside your momentary thrills. How sad
that people like you are allowed to own such an aircraft.

A hundred or five hundred years from now, if your ilk prevails, people
will be saying "Gosh, I wish someone had kept a B-17G preserved
somewhere. I would have really loved to see the real thing".

I hope and pray there are not many like you.

Bill T.

There are millions of us.

And he's heard from 'many like...' here.

The word 'obtuse' comes to mind.

jak

Panzer240 wrote:
"Dave Stadt" wrote in
:


If you feel that way you should purchase them and put them in a museum.
Most would not have survived and will not survive without the intent to
fly. Not much money available for the restoration of static displays.
Lotsa money available for flying restorations. Glaicer girl is an
excellent example.


And the Memphis Belle is an example of a static display going down the tubes.
Still not finished and now moved to Dayton, the US Air Force museum due to
lack of funds to keep the Belle in condition. Those machines were meant to
fly and should be flown. It's really sad to see them rot away on the ground.
In the air they are living history, and give peole a chance to experience the
ground pounding thunder of their mighty engines as they soar overhead. And
very ocaisonally one may get the opportunity to fly in one of them if they
are very lucky as a friend of mine did a few years ago in one of the last
Lancaster bombers left flying.

Aww...that's too bad. I only saw her once back in the 80's and she
looked fine back then. I guess I should have questioned (in my mind
anyway) the wisdom of keeping her in open air beside--no, in the middle
of (Mud Island - Memphis)--the Mississippi River; but they went to a lot
of trouble to get her there. It's a shame to have abandoned the effort.

This is a case of perhaps a machine which should only be static
displayed. She's not one of the thousands of anonymous 17's remembered
only by their dwindling numbers of surviving crew; but rather a piece of
history with an unparalleled combat record at the time of her retirement.

She's done her bit...

jak

Holy cow, what a firestorm I've started!

In my original post, I should have included the following
statement (which might have avoided this useless fight):

Please keep your opinion to yourself BECAUSE THIS IS NOT
THE RIGHT FORUM FOR SUCH A DISCUSSION (on whether it's
right or wrong to fly vintage aircraft, etc). I surely
did not mean that we all can't have our opinions. This
IS still the United States of America, and that IS still
one of our most basic, cherished freedoms. I, too, would
fight to the death to defend those freedoms. However,
there is a time and place to discuss any topic worth
discussing, and this simply isn't the place for the "fly
or no fly" topic. This is a forum for discussing radios,
not the politics of aviation.

Of course, hindsight is 20-20. I apologize to the group
for opening the flood gates and inadvertently getting this
inappropriate firestorm started.

I'll toss in my comments, since the horse has long ago
escaped from the barn.

For those who believe that we should ground our B-17
to preserve it for future generations, lest it might
someday be destroyed and no one will get to see one
in the future, fear not. There are literally dozens
of B-17s on static display all over the world. A few
of those static restorations are superb (witness the
USAF Museum's Shoo Shoo Shoo Baby), while a many other
static planes are cobbled-together airframes that are
literally rotting away on outdoor display. One need
only look for static B-17s, and they'll be relatively
easy to find. They're not really in short supply.

Someone mentioned seeing Memphis Belle flying back in
the 1980s (I think that's what they said). Memphis
Belle has not flown in decades. There is another "F"
model that's painted to represent the Belle, and that
aircraft is a regular flyer on the show circuit. As
I recall, it's the only flying "F" model.

The comment about many vintage warplanes crashing due
to poor piloting and poor maintenance is right on the
money. These old aircraft require a LOT of work to
keep them safely operational, and they require a LOT
of pilot skill and training to keep the pilots from
making the poor decision that lead to crashes. Many
groups have fallen into this category (including the
mighty CAF), but that's changing. We're seeing a big
trend toward proper restorations (not just patching
airplanes together) and proper training of pilots and
crews. The safety records are getting better (though
we certainly have a long way to go). The warbird
community recognizes that slip-shod restoration work
ain't gonna cut it, and pilot training has become the
big focus that it should have been in the past. We're
not out of the woods yet, but we're a LOT better, and
continuing to improve.

VFM's chief pilot (and the actual owner of our B-17)
is one of the few B-17 flight instructors in the world.
He's owned and flown this particular airplane since the
1970s. Our chief mechanic is a lifelong A&P mechanic
(also a ham!). Our maintenance schedule is thorough
and very rigorous. NOTHING comes before safety, on
the ground and in the air. Our ground and air crews
go through recurrent annual training and constant
on-the-line training. If there's a problem, then the
airplane does not fly. It's as simple as that. No
airshow commitment is important enough to risk the
lives of our crews or the safety of the airplane. As
I stated before, the reason we don't have money to go
buy vintage radios is that our money goes into the
one really important thing: the airplane itself.

OK... as Ed Zeranski pointed out... the purpose of my
original posting was to try to acquire original radio
gear for the B-17. So far, a lot of people have come
out of the woodwork to argue and fight and whine, but
Ed's the only one who's actually offered to donate
anything (other than myself; I donated a nice ARC5
transmitter from my own station).

As I told Ed in a private email, the chances that we
will be able to put together a working station aboard
the aircraft are pretty small. So far, no other '17
has a working station, though several of them have a
nice set of original radios installed but not wired.
We won't rule out the possibility of getting some of
the gear to work (at least the BC-348-J receiver),
but since all of the required wiring was removed from
the airframe decades ago, it would be daunting task
that would require a lot of money and volunteer hours.
We prefer to spend the money keeping the airplane in
proper, safe flying condition, and using her to share
history with those who come to the museum and to the
air shows to see and appreciate it.

I said in my original post that we have a BC-348-P on
board the '17. I was mistaken. It's a BC-348-J. I
didn't have my notes handy when I wrote the post.

So... GENTLEMEN... let's halt the "fly - no fly" part
of this thread... let's agree to disagree and get back
to the original purpose. If no one is interested in
helping us out, that's fine. We will survive. Let's
just stop all of the arguing and whining. This isn't
the right forum for it. Write to the FAA and ask them
to stop allowing us to fly. Write to Air Classics and
tell the world why what we do is wrong (and yes, Mike
O'Leary WILL publish letters of dissent!). Stand out
in front of our museum entrance and hand out flyers to
our guests if you like. Let's just re-focus on radio
gear here on these newsgroups! Please?

73,
Dean Hemphill, K5DH



In article , says...

WANTED: B-17G Flying Fortress radio equipment

This is a long message... please read it all!

The Vintage Flying Museum of Fort Worth, Texas, home
of B-17G N3701G, "Chuckie", is seeking DONATIONS of
any kind of radio and radar equipment that would have
been used aboard B-17G's built from early-1944 on.

Our airplane is a B-17G-70-VE, serial number 44-8543A.
She was built in January, 1944, by the Vega division
of Lockheed (B-17G's were built by Boeing, Douglas,
and Vega). She was converted to a "pathfinder" model,
which means she had a radar set installed in place of
the ball turret which allowed bombing through overcast.
Very few Forts were converted for this mission, and it
is possible that our Fort saw combat time over Europe.
The combat records of the pathfinder Forts are still
classified, so we may never know for sure.

Right now, the only original radio gear installed in
the airplane is a BC-348-P receiver and shock mount.
We need everything else. Some of the specific items
we seek are the BC-375-E transmitter, tuning units
TU-4B through TU-10B, BC-306 antenna matching unit,
the wooded tuning unit storage rack that mounts to the
rear bulkhead, ceramic feedthrough insulators, power
and control connectors, and cables. We're also looking
for command set transmitters, receivers, racks, cables,
control boxes, spline cables (the LONG ones that will
reach the flight deck ceiling), modulator, and so on.

Obviously, we are looking for NICE equipment that is
in display condition because we display the airplane
both in the Museum and at air shows and fly-ins. We'll
certainly accept donations of "parts units", but the
primary focus is on acquiring gear that looks good
enough to be installed in the airplane. We want to
impress our tour guests at the air shows with a great
looking radio room! Do you have some surplus military
WW2 airborne radios stashed in your garage or attic?
Would you like to see them go to a good home? Please
donate your equipment to VFM and help us restore the
radio compartment in our beloved B-17! Any radios and
accessories that we don't use in the airplane will be
either put on display in the Museum's exhibit hall or
sold off to generate money to help finance the effort
(no matter how much gets donated, we'll still end up
having to buy some stuff to complete the job!).

We are a small museum, and we have very limited funds
available to spend on things that don't actually help
us to keep the airplane flying. We are looking for
DONATIONS of equipment. We are a 501-c-3 tax-exempt
charitable organization, and we will provide a tax
receipt for your donation.

"Chuckie" is one of approximately 15 B-17s worldwide
that are still in flyable condition, and one of about
10 that is flown regularly. Please don't "bash" me
if my numbers are off by a plane or two; the numbers
go up and down as some Forts come out of restoration
and others go down for heavy maintenance or retirement.
She participated in the fabuluous Thunder Over Michigan
air show in 2005 in which EIGHT of the remaining B-17
population were not only present at the show, but flew
together! It was the largest gathering of civilian
B-17s in history, and it may never be repeated.

Please visit the Museum's web site:

http://www.vintageflyingmuseum.org

I have been authorized by the Museum to be the focal
point for this effort. Please address your messages
directly to me.

We're also looking for a complete chin turret if you
happen to have one stashed in your barn! Actually,
we will graciously accept donations of ANY B-17 parts
that you might have lying around.

My final request is this: If you have nothing nice to
say about this effort, please say nothing. If you are
not a warbird fan, if you believe our effort is a waste
of time and money, if you think we're "glorifying" war,
if you think operating antique warplanes is dangerous
and should be outlawed, etc, etc... you're entitled to
your opinion, but I respectfully ask that you keep it
to yourself.

Thanks and 73,
Dean Hemphill, K5DH
Vintage Flying Museum member

Well if you had asked for the radio gear without your horse **** caveat,
rules and regulation probably no one would have responded.




"-=H=-" wrote in message
...
Holy cow, what a firestorm I've started!

In my original post, I should have included the following
statement (which might have avoided this useless fight):

Please keep your opinion to yourself BECAUSE THIS IS NOT
THE RIGHT FORUM FOR SUCH A DISCUSSION (on whether it's
right or wrong to fly vintage aircraft, etc). I surely
did not mean that we all can't have our opinions. This
IS still the United States of America, and that IS still
one of our most basic, cherished freedoms. I, too, would
fight to the death to defend those freedoms. However,
there is a time and place to discuss any topic worth
discussing, and this simply isn't the place for the "fly
or no fly" topic. This is a forum for discussing radios,
not the politics of aviation.

Of course, hindsight is 20-20. I apologize to the group
for opening the flood gates and inadvertently getting this
inappropriate firestorm started.

I'll toss in my comments, since the horse has long ago
escaped from the barn.

For those who believe that we should ground our B-17
to preserve it for future generations, lest it might
someday be destroyed and no one will get to see one
in the future, fear not. There are literally dozens
of B-17s on static display all over the world. A few
of those static restorations are superb (witness the
USAF Museum's Shoo Shoo Shoo Baby), while a many other
static planes are cobbled-together airframes that are
literally rotting away on outdoor display. One need
only look for static B-17s, and they'll be relatively
easy to find. They're not really in short supply.

Someone mentioned seeing Memphis Belle flying back in
the 1980s (I think that's what they said). Memphis
Belle has not flown in decades. There is another "F"
model that's painted to represent the Belle, and that
aircraft is a regular flyer on the show circuit. As
I recall, it's the only flying "F" model.

The comment about many vintage warplanes crashing due
to poor piloting and poor maintenance is right on the
money. These old aircraft require a LOT of work to
keep them safely operational, and they require a LOT
of pilot skill and training to keep the pilots from
making the poor decision that lead to crashes. Many
groups have fallen into this category (including the
mighty CAF), but that's changing. We're seeing a big
trend toward proper restorations (not just patching
airplanes together) and proper training of pilots and
crews. The safety records are getting better (though
we certainly have a long way to go). The warbird
community recognizes that slip-shod restoration work
ain't gonna cut it, and pilot training has become the
big focus that it should have been in the past. We're
not out of the woods yet, but we're a LOT better, and
continuing to improve.

VFM's chief pilot (and the actual owner of our B-17)
is one of the few B-17 flight instructors in the world.
He's owned and flown this particular airplane since the
1970s. Our chief mechanic is a lifelong A&P mechanic
(also a ham!). Our maintenance schedule is thorough
and very rigorous. NOTHING comes before safety, on
the ground and in the air. Our ground and air crews
go through recurrent annual training and constant
on-the-line training. If there's a problem, then the
airplane does not fly. It's as simple as that. No
airshow commitment is important enough to risk the
lives of our crews or the safety of the airplane. As
I stated before, the reason we don't have money to go
buy vintage radios is that our money goes into the
one really important thing: the airplane itself.

OK... as Ed Zeranski pointed out... the purpose of my
original posting was to try to acquire original radio
gear for the B-17. So far, a lot of people have come
out of the woodwork to argue and fight and whine, but
Ed's the only one who's actually offered to donate
anything (other than myself; I donated a nice ARC5
transmitter from my own station).

As I told Ed in a private email, the chances that we
will be able to put together a working station aboard
the aircraft are pretty small. So far, no other '17
has a working station, though several of them have a
nice set of original radios installed but not wired.
We won't rule out the possibility of getting some of
the gear to work (at least the BC-348-J receiver),
but since all of the required wiring was removed from
the airframe decades ago, it would be daunting task
that would require a lot of money and volunteer hours.
We prefer to spend the money keeping the airplane in
proper, safe flying condition, and using her to share
history with those who come to the museum and to the
air shows to see and appreciate it.

I said in my original post that we have a BC-348-P on
board the '17. I was mistaken. It's a BC-348-J. I
didn't have my notes handy when I wrote the post.

So... GENTLEMEN... let's halt the "fly - no fly" part
of this thread... let's agree to disagree and get back
to the original purpose. If no one is interested in
helping us out, that's fine. We will survive. Let's
just stop all of the arguing and whining. This isn't
the right forum for it. Write to the FAA and ask them
to stop allowing us to fly. Write to Air Classics and
tell the world why what we do is wrong (and yes, Mike
O'Leary WILL publish letters of dissent!). Stand out
in front of our museum entrance and hand out flyers to
our guests if you like. Let's just re-focus on radio
gear here on these newsgroups! Please?

73,
Dean Hemphill, K5DH



In article , says...

WANTED: B-17G Flying Fortress radio equipment

This is a long message... please read it all!

The Vintage Flying Museum of Fort Worth, Texas, home
of B-17G N3701G, "Chuckie", is seeking DONATIONS of
any kind of radio and radar equipment that would have
been used aboard B-17G's built from early-1944 on.

Our airplane is a B-17G-70-VE, serial number 44-8543A.
She was built in January, 1944, by the Vega division
of Lockheed (B-17G's were built by Boeing, Douglas,
and Vega). She was converted to a "pathfinder" model,
which means she had a radar set installed in place of
the ball turret which allowed bombing through overcast.
Very few Forts were converted for this mission, and it
is possible that our Fort saw combat time over Europe.
The combat records of the pathfinder Forts are still
classified, so we may never know for sure.

Right now, the only original radio gear installed in
the airplane is a BC-348-P receiver and shock mount.
We need everything else. Some of the specific items
we seek are the BC-375-E transmitter, tuning units
TU-4B through TU-10B, BC-306 antenna matching unit,
the wooded tuning unit storage rack that mounts to the
rear bulkhead, ceramic feedthrough insulators, power
and control connectors, and cables. We're also looking
for command set transmitters, receivers, racks, cables,
control boxes, spline cables (the LONG ones that will
reach the flight deck ceiling), modulator, and so on.

Obviously, we are looking for NICE equipment that is
in display condition because we display the airplane
both in the Museum and at air shows and fly-ins. We'll
certainly accept donations of "parts units", but the
primary focus is on acquiring gear that looks good
enough to be installed in the airplane. We want to
impress our tour guests at the air shows with a great
looking radio room! Do you have some surplus military
WW2 airborne radios stashed in your garage or attic?
Would you like to see them go to a good home? Please
donate your equipment to VFM and help us restore the
radio compartment in our beloved B-17! Any radios and
accessories that we don't use in the airplane will be
either put on display in the Museum's exhibit hall or
sold off to generate money to help finance the effort
(no matter how much gets donated, we'll still end up
having to buy some stuff to complete the job!).

We are a small museum, and we have very limited funds
available to spend on things that don't actually help
us to keep the airplane flying. We are looking for
DONATIONS of equipment. We are a 501-c-3 tax-exempt
charitable organization, and we will provide a tax
receipt for your donation.

"Chuckie" is one of approximately 15 B-17s worldwide
that are still in flyable condition, and one of about
10 that is flown regularly. Please don't "bash" me
if my numbers are off by a plane or two; the numbers
go up and down as some Forts come out of restoration
and others go down for heavy maintenance or retirement.
She participated in the fabuluous Thunder Over Michigan
air show in 2005 in which EIGHT of the remaining B-17
population were not only present at the show, but flew
together! It was the largest gathering of civilian
B-17s in history, and it may never be repeated.

Please visit the Museum's web site:

http://www.vintageflyingmuseum.org

I have been authorized by the Museum to be the focal
point for this effort. Please address your messages
directly to me.

We're also looking for a complete chin turret if you
happen to have one stashed in your barn! Actually,
we will graciously accept donations of ANY B-17 parts
that you might have lying around.

My final request is this: If you have nothing nice to
say about this effort, please say nothing. If you are
not a warbird fan, if you believe our effort is a waste
of time and money, if you think we're "glorifying" war,
if you think operating antique warplanes is dangerous
and should be outlawed, etc, etc... you're entitled to
your opinion, but I respectfully ask that you keep it
to yourself.

Thanks and 73,
Dean Hemphill, K5DH
Vintage Flying Museum member

Perhaps it will help if you realize this is an unmoderated, free, open
forum.
As such all sorts of folks lurk here. (from the bottom to the top of the
scale)
Many obviously with no knowledge of warbirds and restorations there of.
The best way to avoid the "firestorm" is to ignore comments not related to
your donation request.

I sincerely hope some will come forward for the radio donations, I certainly
would if I had some.

This from one who flew in the 50's prop planes (Before the jets)
I fondly recall the ARC-5's, ART-13, BC-348's etc.

My Uncle flew in B-17's & B-24's in the China, Burma, India theater - he
would be pleased with your efforts.
Someday his descendents will marvel that men flew in such machines.
Your efforts are a fitting tribute to the men who flew and died in these
planes.

I think is admirable for you to try and put them back in their original
setting - kudos and good luck
I'll spread the word here in So Calif for possible donors.

--
CL -- I doubt, therefore I might be !


"-=H=-" wrote in message
...
Holy cow, what a firestorm I've started!

In my original post, I should have included the following
statement (which might have avoided this useless fight):

SNIP

HEAR HEAR!!!!
Well said.

--
RoD
KD0XX
PG-6-29404


"Ed Zeranski" wrote in message
...
Jeeze Loooo F***in' Weeze Folks! Stop the Global Whining! I don't care
about the first post and the request for no BS...you can ask for what ever
you want. Now....anybody else gonna pony up a part or two toward having a
B-17 with a representative radio position? From what I've learned the
radio
position will be for display not a necessarily a full on operating
position. That is OK in my book, better than an open hole. The op and his
group can always have a radio position outside the airframe like Dave
Stinson had in Texas that can be set up next to the airframe and operated
where lots can see it. Anyway, I gave a grunch of radio gear to LST325
that
worked because they wanted to set up an operating radio space. No probs
sending some look-at ARC-5 to a B-17. Anyone else going to send some
parts?
Or just blab?

EdZ

On 22 Mar 2006 20:37:33 -0500, "Bill Turner" wrote:

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

Woody wrote:

There's a fine line between being a
keep-the-box-because-it-matters-to-other-boxkeepers packrat, and
preserving history.

Do you get it??
rb



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

Absolutely, I get it.

You and the two or three posters who agree with you are self-centered
pigs who care nothing about preserving history. Your temporary
adrenaline rush is much more important, and the risk of splattering a
priceless aircraft means nothing beside your momentary thrills. How sad
that people like you are allowed to own such an aircraft.

A hundred or five hundred years from now, if your ilk prevails, people
will be saying "Gosh, I wish someone had kept a B-17G preserved
somewhere. I would have really loved to see the real thing".

I hope and pray there are not many like you.

Bill T.

If you don't fly it, there is no incentive to restore it, other than
cosmetically. I suspect there wouldn't be nearly as many people
preserving these old warbirds, were it not for a chance to pilot or
ride in the things. While there is some risk in sending them into the
air, the positives probably outweigh the one big negative, they may
crash.

Any figures on how many have been lost, flying these old warbirds in
shows and such?

bob
k5qwg

In article ,
jakdedert wrote:

Dave Stadt wrote:
"Bill Turner" wrote in message
...
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

Absolutely, I get it.

You and the two or three posters who agree with you are self-centered
pigs who care nothing about preserving history. Your temporary
adrenaline rush is much more important, and the risk of splattering a
priceless aircraft means nothing beside your momentary thrills. How sad
that people like you are allowed to own such an aircraft.

A hundred or five hundred years from now, if your ilk prevails, people
will be saying "Gosh, I wish someone had kept a B-17G preserved
somewhere. I would have really loved to see the real thing".

I hope and pray there are not many like you.

Bill T.

There are millions of us.

And he's heard from 'many like...' here.

The word 'obtuse' comes to mind.

As does the word 'troll'.

Chris.

--
"People in general are not fundamentally stupid."
"Cite?"

Robin Munn & Simon Cozens in the scary devil monastery

"Bill Turner" wrote in message
...
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY** wrote:

Bill is 100% correct. He should negotiate and buy the plane from the
restorers for its priceless value, say $50-100 million, he can then
store it and show it to whomever he pleases! That is the American way!



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

If I had the money, I would.


Then don't complain about what other people are doing!





Bill T.

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

-=H=- wrote:

We will survive. Let's
just stop all of the arguing and whining. This isn't
the right forum for it.



*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

Very interesting that the post asking to stop the arguing and whining
is the longest post of all, by far. In a nutshell, that's the problem.
Only your thoughts are important, only your desires are valid, what you
want is primary above all.

As long as folks like you own these priceless relics, someday the last
one will be reduced to scrap. What a shame.

Bill T.